What Does a “Win” Truly Look Like In a Divorce Case?

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Steve Altishin 0:31
Hi. I'm Steve Altishin, Director of Client Partnerships at Pacific Cascade Legal, and I'm here with our Founding Attorney, Lewis Landerholm, to talk about what is a win in a divorce case? Hey, Lewis, how you doing today?

Lewis Landerholm 0:44
Doing well, how are you, Steve?

Steve Altishin 0:46
I'm doing well, let's start with what I call the elephant in the question room. You know, winning... isn't that always better than losing? I mean, aren't you in a divorce to win?

Lewis Landerholm 1:00
Yes, winning is always better than losing.

Steve Altishin 1:03
But it doesn't happen a lot in divorce, does it? A clear win, and what is a win? Is it getting more money? Is it getting retribution? I mean, what is a win when you're talking about a divorce case, it's not that easy to maybe apply.

Lewis Landerholm 1:22
It's something that we talk with our clients all the time about every client's because every client's life, every client's case, is different. A win is defined differently for every single person. There's also points in cases where you can win, and there's points in cases within the same case that you can lose, and it's trying to manage all of those different competing factors to really pick out the the wins and where the strongest arguments, or knowing that you're potentially going to lose certain arguments, but then you use those to win other arguments. And so it's very subjective, and really what it boils down to is is helping our clients and expectations and understanding what what is possible, how the law applies, because we can't just, you know that we've got other people involved, whether it's the opposing party or a judge, who are going to make decisions that we can't always predict, And so in each person's case, there's going to be winnable points, and there's going to be points that are not as strong, and it can be lost. But it's about helping clients understand that going into it.

Steve Altishin 2:51
Kind of flipping that on its side in terms of, you know, kind of how you look at it, what it you know, if someone says to you, if I come in, I say, You know what would be, what is a good goal? I mean, what should I get out of this? What is the goal of a divorce case?

Lewis Landerholm 3:12
Well, and I think that is also, you know, very subjective and very dependent on the facts of the case, and dependent on what we're trying to do, from once one person's case, where maybe they haven't seen their kids in two or three years, a win can be just getting parenting time turned on, you know, regardless of what that plan looks like, to another case where a contested custody case and, you know, winning custody because of the facts of the case, because of what's going on from financial standpoint of, you know, the law starts in a divorce as a 5050 split. So, you know the it's hard to change a 5050 distribution, but a win can be working with our clients and looking at what their goals after the divorce really are, and trading certain assets or other assets so that the our clients are in a better position coming out of the divorce. Maybe one client would prefer to have more retirement, and they're willing to trade more cash up front or vice versa, right? So it's really there's a lot of flexibility in what happens in a case. And so it's not just about what the overall numbers look like. It's also the how it's going to be done that becomes important, and so it can be a win to be able to get those pieces done so that our clients have a better are in a better position for them personally, when the case is over.

Steve Altishin 4:55
It feels like an obsession to win can backfire in a divorce. And you know, you always hear about someone who's going to go out and get the most Bulldog lawyer they can find and spend. Don't care how much they spend to get relatively minuscule rewards out of it.

Lewis Landerholm 5:19
Yeah. I mean, there's a common misconception in the, you know, just in the world, that that sort of style can win, and does win in the courtroom. A lot of times, our approach is more of trying to give our clients the most amount of knowledge, the most amount of information ahead of time, because we want them to know and hear the poor arguments in their case just as much as the strong arguments in their case, because they would much rather hear it from us months before we get into court, as opposed to hearing it for the first time from a judge. You know, that's the worst place to hear it. The other part about divorce and family law cases is attorney fees can become available if there was a point in time when a reasonable settlement could have occurred but didn't. And so if there is an approach that is just very aggressive down a line of argument or a line in a case that is just not housed in law, is not a reasonable position, then that allows the other party to then at the end of the case, ask for attorney fees. And those are the type of cases where potentially attorney fees become available. And so it can not only cause the cost of the case to go way up, it can also mean that you end up paying for the other party’s attorney fees because of an approach that's just very stubborn and driving the same position. Now we will always litigate for our clients, and we will always go to court and advance those arguments, but we want to make sure that we are advising clients on what are winnable arguments versus ones that aren't as strong, and to prepare our clients for potentially trading one piece for another piece of the case, so that, you know, we're getting the best possible global outcome for our clients.

Steve Altishin 7:32
That sounds like what I guess you know I would think of as a win, is that you can help them see what is reasonable and what the misconceptions are that they come in with. Because I imagine that kind of winning is coming in with all of these ideas that, you know, maybe are built up with anger and, you know, resentment and all of that, and turning it into a case that actually doesn't end that way, and it ends possibly quicker, because now they, you know, getting getting a having a client understand what the reality is, I think, also makes them feel better long after the divorce is over, like they didn't lose out somehow?

Lewis Landerholm 8:23
Yeah, absolutely, and, and that's how, you know we sort of we see our role in the process is to advise our clients on how the law applies to certain things, with how judges think about things. Because we're in front of judges all day long, and we know within a pretty predictable range what a judge is thinking. Now, there's always outliers, there's always exceptions to the rule, and we handle those also, but for the most part, we want to walk into court have a really good idea of what's going to happen. We're going to come in prepared with our evidence to advance those positions, to make sure that we get to, you know, the point of what we think is predictable, and be able to get our clients that outcome where, years down the road, they feel like they, you know, got a good result and really, especially when kids are involved. You know, the parties after a divorce are tied together forever. And so there's a component of being reasonable, thinking through things from a holistic approach, and not just a scorch the earth, I'm out for blood type situation, because ultimately, those relationships can be can, in some instances, be repaired to the point where you can still work together with that person. There's going to be parts of kids' lives, parents' lives that aren't in a document that need to continue to be worked out and rushing back to court, and just feeling like you have to litigate every time just causes everything to be more stressful, everything to be more costly, and just take a lot of time. And so trying to have those conversations and help our clients understand the process as well as what's going to come out of it is really important.

Steve Altishin 10:19
Yeah, and that kind of winning thing, like the anger and all that. It's also for the other person. It feels like, like you said, you're gonna have to work with this person, especially with kids, and coming out with something that is reasonable for everybody can be a win, because that can reduce all that stress and having to go back to court time and time again.

Lewis Landerholm 10:50
Yeah, absolutely. And at some point, inevitably, somebody is going to need a favor from their ex, and if the divorce was nasty and contentious the whole way, that's not going to happen. If it's done more collaboratively and more agreeable and amicable, then you can have those conversations and in the long run, feel like you handled it as adults and everybody came out of it in the best possible situation in a very difficult and stressful place.

Steve Altishin 11:25
Yep, exactly. Well, thank you, Lewis, for sitting down and talking to us about what a win is in a divorce case, which is a lot of times not what someone thinks it might be before they come to you. It is really helpful. So, Lewis, thank you for coming and joining us again today.

Lewis Landerholm 11:45
Yeah, absolutely. And we even start that process in our consultations to help people, from the very beginning, understand what's typical, what's normal. You know, starting to just lay the foundation for this is how the process works. This is how the court thinks so that people get that information from the very beginning. Because we really want to give our experience and our years of experience of how these things work, to try to talk people off of ledges, but also to give that information, and it really helps to take the unknown and the fear of not knowing what's going on, to give the information that really helps people understand how this legal process really works.

Steve Altishin 12:39
And it's not always like the Bulldog tempering their expectations. Your consultations also, I have seen, go to someone coming in who thinks they can't get things. And you help them realize that winning in a lot of cases is getting more than you think you deserve, but you really do deserve, because that's what's reasonable.

Lewis Landerholm 13:08
Right. And that's where, you know, really a lawyer's role in all of this is being able to extrapolate years of experience working on thousands of cases instead of going and talking to your one friend who went through it, or the internet, which is the worst place, and trying to apply it to your own set of circumstances. We're able to see thousands and thousands of fact patterns and be able to understand what judges have done with those fact patterns to help our clients understand what is possible, what's available, and really take that mystery away. And there are a lot of times that I talk to people and they don't think they have a case for certain things, and then they realize that, oh, this is how the law works. This is what's available, and it helps in the long run a ton.

Steve Altishin 14:06
I love it, I love it. Alright, well, thanks for joining us today.

Lewis Landerholm 14:11
Yeah, you're welcome. Yeah, anytime, Steve.

Steve Altishin 14:14
You got it. And again, if anyone has any further questions, just feel free to contact our firm. We will get you connected with an attorney who can help you, and until then, stay safe, stay happy and be well.

Outro:
This has been Modern Family Matters, a legal podcast focusing on providing real answers and direction for individuals and families. Our podcast is sponsored by Pacific Cascade Legal, serving families in Oregon and Washington. If you are in need of legal counsel or have additional questions about a family law matter important to you, please visit our websites at pacificcascadelegal.com or pacificcascadefamilylaw.com. You can also call our headquarters at (503) 227-0200 to schedule a case evaluation with one of our seasoned attorneys. Modern Family Matters, advocating for your better tomorrow and offering legal solutions important to the modern family.