Show notes
Join us as we sit down with Psychotherapist, Dr. Foojan Zeine, to talk through the different emotional stages of divorce, and tips for how divorcing couples can individually process these emotions in a way that replaces resentment and anger with acceptance and forgiveness. In this interview, Foojan discusses the following:
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- The psychological process of divorce can be complex and daunting, and often requires a skilled professional to successfully get you through it.
- Understanding why each of the stages of the divorce process can trigger differing emotions and behaviors.
- Working through the first shake-up in the marriage and pre-divorce process, to the post-divorce and emotional ending of the marriage.
- Why understanding the potential psychological effect of these stages is essential to navigating divorce.
- The psychological effects when two people choose to legally, socially, physically, and emotionally end the marriage connection between them and proceed to lead separate lives.
- Ways to move from resentment, anger and unbalanced focusing to forgiveness, acceptance and willingness to cooperate with your ex-spouse.
If you would like to speak with one of our family law attorneys, please call our office at (503) 227-0200, or visit our website at https://www.landerholmlaw.com.
To learn more about how Dr. Zeine can help you through your divorce, you can visit her website: https://foojanzeine.com/
Disclaimer: Nothing in this communication is intended to provide legal advice nor does it constitute a client-attorney relationship, therefore you should not interpret the contents as such.
Transcript
Intro
Welcome to Modern Family Matters, a podcast devoted to exploring family law topics that matter most to you. Covering a wide range of legal, personal, and family law matters, with expert analysis from skilled attorneys and professional guests, we hope that our podcast provides answers, clarity, and guidance towards a better tomorrow for you and your family. Here's your host, Steve Altishin.
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Steve Altishin 14:21
Well, that makes total sense to me. And again, you know, so much of what you're talking about, it's hard to do by yourself. It's hard to recognize your own triggers, or your own patterns, or what you're bringing into the relationship. And I imagine that when people are going through divorce, especially if they're in the middle of conflict, it becomes even harder to sort through all of those emotions and reactions.
Foojan Zeine 14:48
Absolutely. Because when people are hurt, they go into protection mode. And when we go into protection mode, we stop listening. We stop empathizing. We stop seeing the other person as a human being that we once loved and cared for, and we begin seeing them only through the lens of pain and disappointment. So then every interaction becomes loaded. Every conversation becomes loaded. And even neutral statements can suddenly sound like attacks. That's why it becomes very difficult for couples to navigate this process alone, because they're both emotionally activated. And when both people are emotionally activated, they usually don't have the ability to regulate and communicate effectively without support.
Steve Altishin 15:35
That sounds like a really dangerous place for people to be making major life decisions from.
Foojan Zeine 15:42
It is. And unfortunately, many people are making legal, financial, parenting, and emotional decisions while they are in one of the most dysregulated states of their lives. That's why support is so important. Whether that's therapy, coaching, legal guidance, support groups, or healthy family members and friends, people need grounding during this process. Because otherwise, they make decisions from resentment, anger, revenge, or fear instead of clarity, balance, and long-term vision.
Steve Altishin 16:17
And I imagine that if you make decisions based on anger or resentment, they may not necessarily be the decisions that are best for you or your children in the long run.
Foojan Zeine 16:29
Exactly. In the moment, it may feel satisfying to “win” or to punish the other person. But later, many people regret those reactions because they realize the cost was too high emotionally, financially, or relationally. Especially when children are involved, because children absorb the emotional environment around them. They may not understand all the legal details, but they absolutely feel the tension, hostility, and instability. And if parents remain stuck in resentment and conflict, children often internalize that stress.
Steve Altishin 17:05
So when someone comes to you in the middle of this process, what are some of the things that you focus on first?
Foojan Zeine 17:14
The first thing is stabilization. Before we can even begin solving problems or creating healthy communication, we need to stabilize the individual emotionally. That means helping them regulate anxiety, fear, anger, grief, or hopelessness. Then we begin awareness. What are you telling yourself? What story are you creating about yourself, your spouse, or your future? What fears are showing up? What expectations were shattered? And then we begin helping them separate facts from assumptions, fears from reality, and past wounds from present situations.
Steve Altishin 17:57
That sounds incredibly important. Because it seems like once people get overwhelmed emotionally, it's really hard for them to think clearly.
Foojan Zeine 18:08
Yes. The nervous system becomes overloaded. People go into fight, flight, freeze, or collapse responses. Some become extremely reactive and angry. Some completely shut down emotionally. Others become obsessive, constantly thinking, replaying conversations, or imagining future scenarios. And all of that affects how they communicate, how they parent, and how they make decisions. So part of therapy is helping people return to balance internally so they can move through the process with more clarity and intention.
Steve Altishin 18:43
One thing that I hear a lot from clients is that they feel like they lost themselves during the marriage or during the divorce process. Is that something that you see often?
Foojan Zeine 18:56
Very often. Many people become so identified with being a spouse, a parent, or maintaining the marriage that they lose connection with their own identity, desires, values, and voice. Then when the divorce happens, they suddenly don't know who they are anymore. So part of healing after divorce is rediscovering yourself. Who are you outside of this marriage? What do you want your life to look like moving forward? What values do you want to live by? What kind of parent, partner, or human being do you want to become?
Steve Altishin 19:33
That almost sounds like there can actually be growth through the process, even though it’s painful.
Foojan Zeine 19:42
Absolutely. Divorce is painful. There's grief, loss, disappointment, and fear. But it can also become a transformational process if people are willing to become aware, learn, heal, and grow. I've seen many individuals move from anger, blame, and hopelessness toward forgiveness, acceptance, emotional balance, and healthier future relationships. It doesn't happen overnight, but it absolutely can happen.
Steve Altishin 20:14
And I imagine forgiveness doesn’t necessarily mean forgetting or pretending nothing happened.
Foojan Zeine 20:22
No, not at all. Forgiveness is not saying what happened was okay. It's not approving harmful behavior. Forgiveness is releasing yourself from carrying the emotional poison of resentment and anger forever. It’s about freeing yourself emotionally so you can move forward and create peace within yourself, whether or not the other person changes.
Steve Altishin 20:51
That’s really powerful. So before we wrap up, if someone is just beginning this process and they’re overwhelmed, scared, or emotionally exhausted, what would you want them to know?
Foojan Zeine 21:05
I would want them to know that they do not have to go through this alone. Divorce is not just a legal process. It is emotional, psychological, social, financial, and sometimes spiritual. Get support. Learn healthy communication skills. Take care of your emotional and physical health. Allow yourself to grieve. And remember that while this chapter may be ending, your life is not ending. There is still the possibility for healing, growth, joy, peace, and healthy relationships in the future.
Steve Altishin 21:44
That is such an important message. Foojan, thank you so much for being here today and sharing your insight and experience with us.
Foojan Zeine 21:53
Thank you so much for having me. It was wonderful speaking with you.
Steve Altishin 21:58
And thank you everyone else for joining us today. If anyone has any further questions on today’s topic, you can post them here, or contact us directly to get connected with Foojan or one of our attorneys. Until next time, stay safe, stay happy, and be well.
Foojan Zeine 14:27
Very much. One of the ways that we work is, say you want to look at your have belief systems, your thought processes, and you create a world about yourself and about what marriage is. And then that's where the expectations that you were talking about show up. "I need to know what kind of expectations of the world have I created about marriage and how do I feel about it? And how do I act toward my mate from that?" Then we have this aspect that we live in our assumptions, like everybody assumes how their mate is going to be. I'm sure you've heard of a lot. "Well, I know he thinks of me like that, or I know that he's going to do this or this, or she's going to do this or this." And I'm like, "well, how do you know? Did you check? No, but I know that the behavior doesn't show. Yeah, or he should know what I need before I tell him because if I tell him, I need this, it's no longer valuable." So there's this assumptive constant concept that is hovering, and we live in it. And we don't really reality check. And sometimes it's so much easier when we actually reality check the other person. "What do you need? What are your what or how can I support you? What's going on with you?" And all of these help bring clarity for us. And then we take ourselves everywhere. So if I think I'm fat, if I think I'm not good enough, if I think I'm not good in bed, if I think I'm this and that, it doesn't matter how much my mate tells me, "oh, you're wonderful!", I'm still gonna say no, I'm not. And there is this piece that shows up where it's not accurate, like our system, and what we believe in the bubble we live in might not be accurate to what is in reality happening within the marriage. So that analytical piece that you were sharing from the observational place, the awareness place, is very important if we're going to live in reality versus some fantasy that we're always living. And then knowing what we bring from the past, but also being intentional. I was asking my client, I said, "the best scenario, what do you see in your marriage?" And she told me this beautiful scenario. I said, "no, if we looked at the video of yesterday, when you guys had your argument and I took him away, and it was just the two of us watched you and your behaviors, you see the warnings, you use your body language, every message you're giving, were you behaving toward the beautiful, ideal relationship you just explained?" And she says, "No. So then what are your thought process as you stand beside him? Similar to what you said, you want it? No. Are you feeling similar? No. Are your behaviors going toward that? No. Like, well, how are you going to get to what you want, if your own thought, if your own emotion in your own behavior doesn't take you there at all? Are you expecting that I'm just going to be here as somebody else, take me there, and you're expecting him to take you there? Or if this is your vision, then you're responsible for getting yourself there. And it's that place where you become intentional about this is what I say I want so therefore, I'm not going to walk my words, and I'm going to do what I say I want in the hopes that the dance with my mate will also collaborate and create a beautiful marriage."
Steve Altishin 17:59
Obviously, a lot of this stuff can help a marriage, we we're here to help prevent divorce and make people happier. And, but it is the job. But it's a great job. Kind of, a it's the best job, but it's still a job. So, what is there a switch that goes on or does the focus change when the legal process starts? I mean, is there a different angle that people start to take a look, once there's a filed divorce, or once the divorce decree is finalized?
Foojan Zeine 18:46
When we get together, we are looking for being an "us." So everything we do is toward this "us," right? Although in the marriage, some people think about "me, me, me, and what do I need for me?" But still, we keep going. Okay, what's best for me, but ultimately, look at the "us." The minute divorce shows up the "us" breaks, and is now "me." It's like, how do I protect myself? How do I take care of myself? How do I from a legal perspective know, as far as finances, how do I look at the future and all of that? Then the element of unfairness shows up. "Well, what you're offering is unfair, and I deserve such and such." So there's an entitlement section that shows up for each person that in order to protect myself, this is what I'm entitled to. This is what the law tells me I'm entitled to this is what I think I'm entitled to regardless of the law, that I'm entitled to. And then, it's also if there's child custody. So all of the issues about children now show up around a negotiation of time, which is a lot of times also the time added to the money. So it's kind of like a link to that. So there's a lot more that happens in that section. And then there's an enforcement. If they can't emotionally enforce something, then they will play the same game, now with attorneys involved. So if I feel it's unfair, and I feel that I want to see my child or I want to, play a game, or I'm just going to be stubborn about something, now I have an ally that I'm also going to play the game with because they're powerful, and they can go because we can't talk.
So the focus changes from "us" to "me," and "what works for me, and I'm going to win regardless, and I'm going to be really pissed if I lose, at any point of this, my anger is going to go up, because I expect to win this game." This is how the focus changes. What I tell people who have children is, "can we get there? Can we get the communication, right, because regardless of whether you want to be with each other or not, if you have children, he's got to communicate and negotiate." So that skill still needs to be there. For the two of you, to raise your children together for the next whatever, 20 years and being in each other's life by force, or by choice. So the communication is something that allows them to negotiate. And next, for both of them to feel a little bit of a win win in their whole process. Because if it's just one person winning, it's going to be a disaster because the other person will always feel like a victim. And that space of victimization will funnel through the conversation with the children. And then children will become the tool for that victimization piece.
Steve Altishin 21:57
Then the process that you see is someone who is using you. One before there's been a filing for divorce, they're all trying, and then when the divorce happens. I think, but that doesn't mean that they failed, and they don't need you anymore, or they don't need to continue to try to do these things we're talking about anymore. But that feeling of failure has got to kind of come into play at some point.
Foojan Zeine 22:37
The feeling of failure is always around the loss part of it because the way that we are wired or heard through our childhood, "until death do us part." I mean, this is what we say when we're getting married. So people are getting married for a lifetime, they're not getting married, if they don't look at it, as you know, I'm going to do at least with "option to buy," and then I will just give you the car back. Somehow there's this notion that we, when I marry it's for a lifetime. So when the marriage doesn't work, because it defies the original intention, or the fantasy that we hold, then it appears to be a failure. We don't have the same mentality when we go to work or businesses. We don't say that the first part, the first job I've ever had, I'm going to keep for the rest of my life. Or the first business I've had, we're going to keep for the rest of my life. People grow out of one job or career or something and move to the next. But family is supposed to be forever. So when somebody marries, it appears, I'm creating another family. So letting go of that family appears to be a failure. And then we work through that concept of what we've learned from a marriage, how we have grown through this whole process, how much of the growth has happened by watching, watching the debates, watching what I've learned from the other person and expanded myself? What are the things that I've learned that I've never could have known without this? What are the things that I can? What are the fantasies that I had that when I faced reality were different? And how can I take this learning that I've had and produce a different type of marriage or a relationship and a future for myself. So you shift anything that appears to be a failure or a mistake and shift it to a growth process for yourself and move forward with it.
Steve Altishin 24:48
That, kind of gets to coming out the other end. What is, I guess you would say, "completing the marriage, getting it", not just behind you, but like you said, kind of getting it, making it a thing that results in something new that you're excited about?
Foojan Zeine 25:13
Yes. First of all, what I've noticed in this past 30 years Steve, is it takes about one year almost, for normal not complicated grief process, or complicated in the divorce process. It takes usually one year from the day that you actually receive your divorce papers, not when you file. But when it's received, in your mail, and you go through different aspects of grief. So it's like section by section that you go through the next level of grief, and then the next one. So the first one is like okay, somebody talks about grief. And then with divorce, you go to an attorney, you watch the papers, you're actually signing the papers, and for the first time, there's this, all of these emotional reactions, then you kind of get used to that piece, then it's the matter of removing yourself from the premise of you guys were living together, and that goes through its own phase. Then it's a matter of who am I as a single person again? And what is my identity, how can I be different? And that's another system. Then it's watching your mate with your children, and you no longer have the same control. Then is another level of kind of like grief that you go through. And then you have to adjust that. I'm not in control all the time. Then you see your mates, probably dating or somebody talks about it, then you have another level of grief. You also have all of these people around you who want to talk about your life and your divorce and how you were not where and what they heard from the other person, you've got to pass through those levels of grief. And finally, watching your mate with someone else, that's another level of grief. And then the papers show up, and then it completes it, and then up. So these are the phases. And at any phase, depending on your belief system, is the thought process and emotional process you kind of get, where you can get stuck, or you can learn and move forward. And the best learning process is again, looking at, "how was I here? What did I do as a mistake? What is it? Did I learn from the other person? How can I take that to the to the next level of my life? And then, watching the whole part as a growth process. Now I usually say, "stop your anger and hatred, I want you to honor your decision." And all of these years that you chose to be with this person, honor yourself, because there was a reason why you were there. And we could go back at each section and you can watch why you made those decision, so honor those decisions. And honor that the day that you say, "you're complete and you're moving on." And in this way you can clear up the kind of negativity and toxicity and come out with a diamond, the jewel of, shining about the air of your life that you learn so much from.
Steve Altishin 28:17
Yeah, and again, kind of reaching back, do you become more aware of yourself, but it sounds like, you also become more aware of other people. Your ex spouse, things that you may have said. "Well, this is just a dirty rotten rat?" Well, maybe not necessarily. It seems like that's kind of part of that completion process.
Foojan Zeine 28:41
Yes, we have to. We have to hate them in order to let go. It's kind of hard to say, "I love them all is well. Everything's beautiful with them. And I want them, but I gotta go." So, you've got to choose. Even for the people who are not ready for divorce, and they're major, the ones who are getting a divorce, they get stuck for that group. They get stuck because they're not choosing the divorce. They're a victim of a divorce. So their part of the process of healing is actually starting to choose the divorce. For that group, in order to choose the divorce in reshaping their focus, and all the things that weren't working in their relationship, until they choose divorce. After they choose divorce, and that grief process starts, then they can forgive and then honor themselves, and put that plate all in perspective again. But that's usually what happens in order for us to get a divorce. We have to see the worst in the person and go into a hopeless place and that it just isn't working, in order to choose the divorce.
Steve Altishin 29:52
Whether it's over when someone reaches this conclusion, this completion. Like you said, it could be shortly after the divorce, it could be quite a while after the divorce. Are they no longer in need of any counseling? Is this something that, "okay, now you can go away? And hopefully you'll remember this stuff on your next marriage?" Or is this something that that can help on a continuing basis? Because, okay, I've gotten past that one. So I don't need help. Is that really true?
Foojan Zeine 30:36
I think that the healing that needs to happen after we are out of a process is what's very important. Because if we don't get healed, we take those kinds of resentments and triggers with us to the next relationship. Another part that I really request from people is to start learning about tools that would make an effective relationship the greatest. There's so many books out there, so many podcasts, there's so many movies, there's so many things that you can actually watch, learn, bring it into your system, to learn how to effectively have an amazing relationship together. We are the first relationship we're born into that is part of our own parent's relationship. If it was healthy, great, now they gave us some tools. If it wasn't, well, we have the lock there. We have to go learn maybe about our original relationships, the first ones that, everybody kind of gets traumatized and rejected and all of that. Those weren't the best role models for us. And if our marriage didn't work, obviously, we didn't have a great role model and an experience. So I request for people to start really studying, learning what tools are amazing for a relationship that just works. It doesn't matter what relationship, this works. Communication skills, work, negotiation skills work. So those are the things that I think people need to learn. They can do it through therapy. They can do it through self education. And then usually when they go into the next relationship or dating process, sometimes they can use help again, in seeing that whatever they've learned, they can now utilize it as they're going through a dating process. And, in the beginning phases of a relationship to see if they're assessing appropriately. They're assessing for the right person, and they're communicating straight through, and doing a good job at communicating. And those are all the different phases of life again, that sometimes it's support, having the support as a mirror, as a clear mirror, really helps a person to move from one stage of life to the next.
Steve Altishin 32:52
Wow. It's such great insight, and of course, 30 minutes just flew by. And so we're gonna have to close. But, can you before we close, thank you so much for doing this and your just terrific amount of insight on a really not easy, complex kind of deal, and you really help kind of guide us to that. But can you let someone know, if they're interested in talking to you, how would they get ahold of you?
Foojan Zeine 33:26
Sure, go to my website, foojanzeine.com. Or, go to any of the social media, Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, LinkedIn, any of them. Dr. Phil Johnson, and I love to hear from you and to be a support. I know that can be difficult support for anyone in their life. It doesn't matter whether you choose it, or someone's chosen it for you to be divorced. It's a hard process and I love to be able to support people through it.
Steve Altishin 33:59
Oh, thank you so much. And again, everyone who's tuned in thank you also for joining us today. Anyone with questions obviously on today's topic, can get ahold of who's on by any of the means she talked about, or you can post your questions here, and we can get you connected to Foojan as well. And then until next time, as I say stay safe, stay healthy, and stay happy.
Outro:
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